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Post by Charlie Redington on Mar 23, 2014 6:45:24 GMT -5
Just a thought and I think others may have more to add. I remember when I started paddling the Lew Crew invited me everywhere and took great care of me. I was a swimmer big time then, but I also self rescued quickly...and one of the guys commented as much.
tips for a quick self rescue
I would get one end of my boat on the bank upside down. get out to the other end and lift the boat pouring the wter out of the cocpit ( the big drain plug) raising and lowering the boat untill I heard no more water pouring out... on the last lift I would flip the boat up side right. If I felt there was too much water to go on I used the drain plug....more often then not the cocpit was good enough..(seeings how i was wet already) Back in my boat giving thanks to my friend for the rescue..and we were off....
There were those times the swim wore me out and someone would come to my aid and ready my boat (the same way) and man did I appreciate those guys...you know who you are..Jim B,Jim L, Morgan J, Ken C. and there others I just can't come up with Im sure...thanks guys Point being..If youor going to paddle without a roll or at least the thought I gonna pull soon as I flip...get yourself together as quickly as possible..yur friends or at least My friends appreciated that about me. This is a fun Sport and Swimming is part of it... Self rescue as quick as possible.
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Post by Charlie Redington on Mar 23, 2014 7:01:09 GMT -5
felt the need to log back on and mention one swim in particular when I dislocated my shoulder on the cherry somewhere near Rhododendron Park..once again there was Jim L 's smiling face ready to rescue...once they figured out I was unable to self rescue everyone went into action in there own way...once to shore though...Our swift water rescue instructor went to work with his training and worked on getting my shoulder in place as quick as possible ( I remember Don saying that he had never done it but had the training) Lets do it I replied. .after a couple failed attempts they flipped the canoe and I laid long ways on it while the others stabilized my body Don was able to get the job done....I cant thank Don enough and always appreciate the opportunity to say THANKS DON! Get your applications in for the Swift-water clinic in and be a asset to your fellow boaters!
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Matt Tucker
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Post by Matt Tucker on Mar 23, 2014 21:44:04 GMT -5
Thanks for info and sharing
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 5:33:59 GMT -5
One other addition to dumping the water out of your boat: If it is at all possible, get the nose of your boat up on shore and pick up and dump from the tail of your boat. If you are a good beginner or novice you have air bags in the tail of your boat and there will be less water in it to lift and to dump. -- Nancy
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Post by Charlie Redington on Mar 24, 2014 7:52:25 GMT -5
Thanks Matt for your response but this thread was not aimed at any one person..Last night I saw two different people attempting to drag boats full of water out of the pool...I don't care how young you are that's a tough job and unnecessary.
lets go boating!
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Jim McClure
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Post by Jim McClure on Mar 24, 2014 8:10:33 GMT -5
I feel I should chime in on this, after all I did earn the name swimjim, a great white water honer in my book. As far as swimming goes class I, II, maybe simple 3s I always tried to do the feet down stream head up eyes looking for a better spot to be in the hole while trying to not release my boat or more importantly and easier to swim with, my paddle. Once the water calms down and you slow down, I kick with my legs and slowly reach the shore. No mess no fuss. However bigger rapids III, IV inherently are harder to control Whare you're going, but in most cases, if you're lucky you can still form somewhat if a plan. Personally after cord relief I try to get some distance between me and my boat (it can hammer on you in certain situations) the paddle usually goes shortly after, at this point i swim aggressively head down stream and try to maintain some control. It takes a little out of ya but you come away from that with a hole new perspective of the river at hand. My paddling partners and others whom I don't even know will most assuredly collect your stuff and check on you very quickly. The plastic down boaters usually are forming plans of their own to make this experience of the swimmer least painful as possible. ClassV and higher you're in for the last minute thoughts.... A very scary and un comfortable situation, you MUST maintain your composure!!! Do Not panic if you are pinned weather rock entrapped, stuck in a strainer, fight for your life (hopefully you said your prayers the night before) you don't have much time. If you find yourself flushing down stream it is no more less stressful mind and body. Chances are you'll be arms and legs flailing out of control, no bearing on which way is up or down. The spin cycle is vicious!! Best thing I've found, look for the light and get some air when ya can, Cheers to swimming and God speed.
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Post by Charlie Redington on Mar 24, 2014 16:51:10 GMT -5
Great Jim but you miss the point..Point...get your boat emptied and back in it and join the group as quickly as possible if your going to have an (its ok to swimm mentality) people do not care to wait for a bit on a swimmer but if you do not self rescue quickly the group can get ugly...nobody wants to be that guy, or gal..people start not wanting to paddle with that person...nobody wants that either....
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Matt Tucker
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Post by Matt Tucker on Mar 24, 2014 17:51:33 GMT -5
Hey Charlie, I didnt take it as just me...I'm sure all open minded folks will take this for what it is. Simply things on the river happen. We all either made or make mistakes and it has an effect on the group at times. Be safe and smart about getting in and out of water along w dumping water if needed (I've personally have needed reminded and helped on this). On a personal note, I appreciate everyone's help, direction, etc. Now enough talk and let's go boating!
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Post by Tony Daniel on Mar 24, 2014 19:13:51 GMT -5
what a great thread- sometimes you need to press a bit but mostly I say take the time you need to recuperate from a swim or even if your just getting physically worn down from paddling. Sure its inconvenient for the group- there's a ton of stuff that's inconvenient about me- waiting for me to squeeze into or out of my drysuit at the put in or takeout, helping me hold the back of my sprayskirt on my xp so I can get it on before launching, waiting for me to reattach a blown out footpeg, or waiting for me to carry around a "falls" but lots of folks have done all that and more for me and I'm truly grateful. But I don't think keeping up with the group after a swim because they're having to wait should be a major factor. In fact, a really slick paddling partner will almost always come up with an excuse to extend the stop (especially after they've seen me take a second swim)- by empty their own boat, moving their bulkhead, peeing, stretching, eating a snack or adjust their paddling garb. Are there times to press? Certainly, like when its getting dark, or when you realize you forgot the shuttle vehicle keys, or when someone is hurt and your in the part of the group that is going for help. Yet I find in most situations, not rushing is the way to go safely. I'm a big believer in "take a minute."
In all situations learning to be efficient is a good thing because it is more expedient, saves energy, and enables you to keep going even when your body doesn't want to.
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Post by Charlie Redington on Mar 24, 2014 20:05:08 GMT -5
I agree Tony, What a great thread! I apologize to anyone touched in a negative way...not my intention...and what ever message I was trying to convey has long been lost...I would pull it myself if I held the strings...sorry folks!
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Post by Don Beyer on Mar 24, 2014 20:43:15 GMT -5
In my opinion, you should not consider swimming a part of the sport. Much more emphasis should be placed on rolling. If your roll is not 100% then you're not done learning to roll. There are plenty of drills that train you to roll in all conditions. Your paddling friends will appreciate a roll way more than a good self rescue.
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Post by Tony Daniel on Mar 25, 2014 7:49:12 GMT -5
My path into whitewater was different than many of you. For six summers I was canoe tripping in Maine with the boyscouts. This involved carrying camping equipment and,tandem paddling in 17' abs and aluminum canoes. Rolling wasn't an option but we did successfully run our share of whitewater. Yet I also I know the value of a good roll from my video days on the New and Gauley. I think the ultimate goal is to boat under control- regardless of your self rescue technique- swimming, rolling, climbing back in a ducky or getting a t rescue. In general there are two schools of thought for beginners- teach the roll first or teach paddling first. I followed the second path, but if you want to progress up the ladder of difficulty, then a roll quickly becomes an essential skill . Learning to clean up your own mess is important, but if you don't make a mess to begin with (by avoiding the swim) then you're even better off. What's a little surprising about Don's mindset is that he is an "openboater." Traditionally, they've been more accepting of swimming as a legitimate self rescue technique. When you add racing through gates, like Don and Jo do, the mindset changes and it is easier to understand the "no swims" mentality. Total control, and speed are priorities in racing and having a reliable river roll is standard protocol or an expectation with ww slalom racers. But I'm living proof that you can still boat and have a "fleeting" roll. That's not to say I don't want to improve in that area.. In the meanwhile,my mantra is "Just don't tip over and you don't have to worry about it"- now that's a totally old school approach!
I'll add some more fuel to the fire and state that "there are times when its better to leave your boat (by wet exiting) and there are also times when it becomes absolutely essential that you don't swim or things could get much worse. Knowing the difference, and "making it happen" is the key to survival in those situations.
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Post by Don Beyer on Mar 25, 2014 15:05:29 GMT -5
I am tolerant of an openboater's swim. Only some open canoes paddle well full of water. Most of my paddling has been in decked boats. I tend to be somewhat less tolerant of a decked boater swim under certain circumstances. Specifically, if someone is swimming repeatedly on rivers they are familiar with, then more time needs to be spent learning to roll rather than perfecting self rescue techniques. Also, it has been my experience that there are surprisingly few situations where a wet exit improves your situation. Take the Swiftwater rescue course and learn more. (Shameless plug)
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Jim McClure
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Post by Jim McClure on Mar 25, 2014 19:01:37 GMT -5
If ya race motorcycles you're gonna eat dirt. If ya raise bees your gonna get stung. Fire burns...... And so on. I haven't had a swim free season since the beginning. Trying new things, exploring new lines. Swim happens.
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Josh Jordan
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Post by Josh Jordan on Mar 26, 2014 17:10:02 GMT -5
Sounds like swim Jim needs to be hitting the roll sessions....
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Brent Samples
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Post by Brent Samples on Mar 26, 2014 19:07:58 GMT -5
the last swim i saw Jim take involved him intentionally paddling into a really large hole that everyone else avoids, at last count i think he and the right hole at the bottom of Mile Long on the Dries are tied 3 to 3
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Jim McClure
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Post by Jim McClure on Mar 26, 2014 21:23:21 GMT -5
Brent after checking my log book I have totaled 8 runs and swam in that funky hole twice, I've learned there ARE reasons everybody avoids certain features on the river. When I practice my roll I do it 3 times on the right 3 times to the left, back deck roll 3 times off side back deck 3 times and try a couple hand rolls. Takes like 5-10 minutes, muscle memory's all it takes.
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Post by Jeff Wright on Mar 28, 2014 6:21:57 GMT -5
It almost feels like Don is calling me out for our first Cheat Canyon trip were I swam almost all of the big rapids. I say swim as much as you can...it will increase your comfort level when swimming in class V water and let others gather your gear for you... They may even empty your boat for you if you drag your feet enough getting to shore.
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Post by Jeff Wright on Mar 28, 2014 6:22:59 GMT -5
Actually "dragging" your feet may not be such a great idea...
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Jon Sheets
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Post by Jon Sheets on Mar 28, 2014 6:35:22 GMT -5
It's almost a proven fact that if you wear a full face helmet you will swim less... Ask Jeff... Since he bought his he's swam less...well he also stopped boating too...
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Josh Jordan
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Post by Josh Jordan on Mar 28, 2014 6:43:38 GMT -5
I mean, come on, what's the worst thing that can happen in a full face helmet?!?!
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Post by Don Beyer on Mar 28, 2014 8:15:06 GMT -5
Jeff W - I am not calling you out. LOL. You had not paddled the Cheat Canyon before (well, pretty much none of the group had, as it turned out) so I classify that under the category of "sh_t happens". That day we just had a lot of it happen. My ranting probably could be boiled down to the following: Paddlers shouldn't lower the bar to the point that they consider swimming part of a typical paddling trip. When out of the boat, the risks of injury generally increase significantly.
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Post by Jeff Wright on Mar 28, 2014 9:10:38 GMT -5
I believe that I am living proof that swimming increases your odds of being injured
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Julia Ruthford
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Post by Julia Ruthford on Mar 28, 2014 10:38:10 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with swimming at all...water is your friend...it is the rocks that are the problem...
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Jon Sheets
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Post by Jon Sheets on Mar 28, 2014 12:14:38 GMT -5
Lol to boot....walking on iced over slick ass rocks also increases it too...not just swimming... Eh Jeff?!?!
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Brent Samples
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Post by Brent Samples on Mar 28, 2014 16:31:31 GMT -5
yeah! what Julia said, rocks suck unless they are on creeks lol
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Post by Michael Gallimore on Mar 29, 2014 10:25:40 GMT -5
As I watched Jeff Wright break his nose at Pete Morgan rapid during that infamous Cheat Canyon expedition, where we based our lines off a printed piece of paper of the AW rapid description we found on the river (just after the first rapid), I must reiterate what Don said, yes, sh_t happens, especially when you are in a high water situation and basically nobody knew the lines. I would also like the record to state that this was before Jeff Wright bought a full faced helmet.
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Jim Bobbitt
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Post by Jim Bobbitt on Mar 31, 2014 12:43:06 GMT -5
Charlie and a lot of others know I have had my share of swims,maybe somebody's else share sometimes, but I hear of some young boaters having 6-10 rolls on one river trip. Rolling up is great, but no one mentioned working on your brace until you'll almost never be upside down. Some twenty years ago I first boated with Brent S. and never saw him upside down for years. He said if you have a great brace you don't have to roll. Work on your brace,on your weak and strong side every time out. I have hit my elbow in lower Keeney and my head on several creeks. A great brace would have eliminated some of these accidents and many swims. Spend more time learning to brace and still have a good roll and you will be set. You will see great boaters get their head wet and brace back up in a rapid. If you're having a brunch of rolls on one river trip than you need to work on bracing. Just my opinion.
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Post by Don Beyer on Mar 31, 2014 13:22:09 GMT -5
Jim, How do you put your hand on your shoulder like that? And a follow up question - does that ability help with bracing?
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Jim Bobbitt
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Post by Jim Bobbitt on Apr 1, 2014 7:50:21 GMT -5
Don,you have to be double jointed on the shoulder trick.Some people say bracing is a partial roll. I agree,the ability to roll will greatly influence your bracing ability, but I see and hear of paddlers with an almost 100% roll who are upside down every time you turn around. Maybe too years ago we learned to paddle with no roll and we were dependent on our brace. We learned rolling several years after we started to paddle. These young people learn a roll before every hitting moving water. They have no bracing experience. Do you agree?
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