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Post by Don Beyer on Apr 1, 2014 8:49:00 GMT -5
I do agree that there is too often that disconnect between rolling and bracing. The fact that folks that have mastered their roll rarely flip unless playing is proof of the connection. The phenomenon of someone having a "pool roll" and not having a "river roll" has long been a interesting issue as well. I strongly believe that this type of information should be introduced/discussed when I am standing in the pool helping someone learn to roll or any other time there is a teaching opportunity. Often, new boaters have not even been on a river yet so they really may not know when/how they will do hese things. They just know that they are supposed to "learn how to roll". They desperately need the orientation in paddling. That's the foundation that an entire paddling career is built upon. The mental aspects are as important as just learning a basic skill. When I am teaching, I try to describe scenarios in which you need this particular skill. With the right understanding, a skill becomes an effective tool rather than just a parlor trick. Here is an example. Many times I have seen someone at the pool roll up and hold their paddle out of the water (usually horizontal) with a very satisfied look on their face. I suggest that they keep a blade in the water so the "next wave" doesn't flip them right back over again. Most of the time, they will reply, "Hey, I didn't think of that."
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Matt Thompson
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Post by Matt Thompson on Apr 1, 2014 14:29:59 GMT -5
I am enjoying this thread since these are my goals for the year. I've focused a fair bit on boat control and maneuvers to this point. While I typically hit my roll there have been times it's failed, leaving me unconfident. 2014 is the year of the roll and brace for me assuming my shoulders are cool with it.
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Post by Charlie Redington on Apr 1, 2014 17:25:52 GMT -5
I agree with that Jim...I have made it my mission to along with teaching people how to roll but also a Hi brace at the pool sessions. Like you said It almost eliminates the need to roll...Eric Jackson has a great video on youtube called improving the brace and it is very informative on the subject...i cant post a link from the seat I am sitting at but its ez to find..It will also be taught at our intermediate clinic... Ive always wondered about how you did that thing with your hand on your shoulder too...but I really like the thumbs up on the other side...cool!!!
lets go boating!
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Matt Thompson
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Post by Matt Thompson on Apr 1, 2014 18:35:17 GMT -5
HereWhen he spins that hat around it's like Sly in "Over the Top". It's about to get real....
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Post by Tony Daniel on Apr 1, 2014 20:06:24 GMT -5
well some of that drill looks pretty old school to me, kinda like my flailings at the pool except I didn't know it was a "real" thing. My brace is far more evolved than my roll. So my set up on the roll is where I need to work- which isn't a bit surprising to me since I'm switching boats and measuring success in terms of dry hair( thus very limited roll practice.) EJ didn't touch on the low brace at all, which is super handy in cboats but also has some applications in a kayak..
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Post by Wes Barthwick on Apr 2, 2014 0:43:43 GMT -5
Charlie led me to this video. I think the club should start actively start teaching this.
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Matt Thompson
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Post by Matt Thompson on Apr 2, 2014 5:36:31 GMT -5
I've seen a lot of debate on whether these techniques are appropriate (i.e. could lead to shoulder injury, use energy to roll instead, etc.). I've been looking to find some pool time to work on exactly what this video covers. I'd like to hear from our expert boaters.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 9:22:54 GMT -5
I noticed that the name of the video is "Improving the Brace". (Notice that he didn't say "LEARNING the Brace".) He then goes on to say that you learned to roll and to brace.
Do we have anyone in the club who is capable and willing to teach what EJ is promoting in this video?
Do we have qualified students?
Chuck
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Post by Don Beyer on Apr 2, 2014 14:32:43 GMT -5
I can think of three disadvantages to that kind of bracing. 1. If and when that brace fails, the paddler will most likely be going into the water face first. Not good unless you are looking to change your identity anyway. 2. The paddlers shoulder is put in a very vulnerable position for potential dislocation if the paddle blade hits a rock. It's a good illustration of being outside of the "cube" taught in the Beginners Clinic. 3. When the paddlers body is laid that far back on the rear deck, it changes the trim of the boat significantly (and stability) - particularly in some of the Jackson playboats that have relatively low volume sterns. The result is often some type of backender. I would rather teach the paddler to sit up and paddle up front and stay in a more aggressive and stable position. When paddling that way it is likely that fewer braces will be necessary in the long run.
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Post by Chuck Brabec on Apr 2, 2014 15:55:27 GMT -5
I agree with Don.
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Matt Thompson
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Post by Matt Thompson on Apr 2, 2014 18:08:50 GMT -5
Don's comments are very much in line with H2O Dreams videos.
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Post by Charlie Redington on Apr 2, 2014 22:19:09 GMT -5
I too agree with Dons Take and never appreciated the way EJ lays on the back deck because I have been hit by that next wave and found my self attempting another roll up..and I do try to convey that thought when i see it in the pool...i have also try-ed to point out to some that going past 90 degrees leaves you vulnerable to that hit... mechanically speaking not everyone can roll up at a 90 degree angle or slightly forwards..that has been a challenge for me anyway, but i do not promote lying on the back deck...I do however allot of times say find what works for you and work with that...But I really do think EJ is cool when he flips his hat to the back position...Ive always thought that look is cool on grown men..I looked at the White water dreams web site briefly but could not find anything pertaining to bracing so to speak..nut really respect what they have to offer so i wanted to see it and there thoughts...ERA pushed me not to waste energy with a brace and just commit to a roll but I hate being upside down at certain times...I am safer in my boat rite side up...so ya I brace..I'm sure there are many more videos demonstrating the brace, and would love to see one from H2o dreams if they have one Matt. I really like the link you pointed us to and have learned and reminded of much since watching them....I like the way they present information...so if anyone knows of a good video that models another version of a brace they think should be looked at, I for one would love to see it. while earlier hoping this thread would Die..I too have enjoyed what it has grown into
lets go boating!
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Matt Thompson
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Post by Matt Thompson on Apr 3, 2014 7:21:16 GMT -5
H2O Dreams doesn't address the brace but refers to the aggressive slightly forward paddling position Don mentioned. The video on working holes introduces the "oh crap" position. Hands low, body slightly forward, etc. He also expands on the box in the playboat videos. Saying it's a good rule of thumb but sometimes it is necessary to get out of the box to pull some moves. He goes on to say the rule is more properly said "your shoulders should be parallel with the paddle shaft". So don't throw that paddle out there without maintaining a position of power.
I will say at the NOC roll clinic there was one key take away for me. A slight lean back makes a world of difference. I'm not talking on the back deck, slight. All my boats have a clear low point in the deck near the cockpit. This spot is basically at or just behind my waist, so my body needs to be perpendicular or slightly back to get that low point in the center of my body. This allows the pivot point to be where the deck is lowest instead around the bow where all that volume is. Staying forward also weakens the hip snap greatly. I can tell you when I miss a roll I can usually diagnose the problem back to the setup.
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Post by Don Beyer on Apr 3, 2014 9:30:44 GMT -5
Actually, staying forward does not typically weaken the hip snap greatly. I would argue that Matt's perception could just be an exception to this. It has been my observation that, on average, someone can be taught a "leaning back" type of roll and get their first roll quicker. However, I have seen these same folks tend to struggle some to get their roll more reliable in the long run.
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Matt Thompson
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Post by Matt Thompson on Apr 3, 2014 12:00:12 GMT -5
Don's an expert so I'll be experimenting with different positions. It may be that different positions help me come out to the side & up to the surface vs. remaining tucked. Looking forward to spending time on this. NOC trip will be here soon.
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Jeff Beyer
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Post by Jeff Beyer on Apr 3, 2014 12:22:02 GMT -5
I try to avoid leaning back as shown in the EJ video in order to protect not only my shoulders and face (money maker?), but also to avoid looking like a surfacing [insert favorite whale/ dolphin species here]. I also do not appreciate EJ's techniques for rolling at all, for the same reasons... but I digress.
In the heat of battle I stay in an aggressive slightly forward position, and keep the power on. I believe that alone can eliminate the need for a fair amount of situations that require bracing. I prefer to be a little proactive, rather than be totally reactive. If I need to brace then ill do it from a more forward position. If the brace fails, I am that much closer to being set up for a fast roll. I will, however, save the leaning back for some sort of hip hop night club. Perhaps even a solo Cirque du Soleil performance at the take out? The latter would likely require more peer pressure...
Side note, "sculling brace"? ...I don't even... What?!. But fear not, sculling bracers! I can reduce a dislocated shoulder.
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Josh Jordan
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Post by Josh Jordan on Apr 3, 2014 17:56:09 GMT -5
I agree that leaning back is just a bad habit to get into. Helps get the pool roll more quickly but tends to hurt people on the river. Coming up in that position is only effective in flat water. When I roll in the river I plan on bracing and leaning to the side I came up on until I get my bearings.
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Post by Tony Daniel on Apr 4, 2014 10:52:57 GMT -5
I think the whole discussion has shown how ww paddle sports are evolving from a more passive and reactive position to a more proactive forward paddling mindset.. Many ocean kayakers use different roll styles or employ multiple styles and I think its a bit the same in ww. I myself need to greatly work on my posture and staying forward in the boat. I've gotten a bit lazy and out of shape through the years and have clung to some of my old ways But boat design has changed as well- with ratchet systems, bulkheads and the like. They are huge improvements.
My perception mirage has an added "after market" backband but it is still greatly lacking compared to the way newer boats and the way they are set up now. Other kayaks I paddled "back in the day" were a phoenix slipper and a lettman. As I recall- the Lettman was a huge fiberglass beast full of patches- no wonder we kept our heads on the back deck while we used those heavy norse paddles- mechanically it gave us our best shot of getting any roll- nobody I knew had hip pads and the seats flexed because they were made in one piece and connected to the cockpit combing.
Ever notice how many hand rollers finish with their heads on or toward the backdeck?.Sometimes you gotta cheat a little bit also when the buffet and the sixpack have been your close friends for years. I know I resemble that comment..
Now why is it that I can't get most of the young guns to paddle more than ten miles? .You'll need to learn to "slump" a bit- stay in the current, conserve energy, paddle a big long boat, then ya can join me on the bluestone or top gauley- heck we'll paddle all the way down to the lake- now that's the kinda "form" worth talkin' about.
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Brent Samples
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Post by Brent Samples on Apr 5, 2014 15:07:53 GMT -5
Tony and I had a chuckle over this thread last night and Julia and I as well today on the NRG this morning, Julia's back deck roll worked fine at Lower RR and Greyhound, my C-C worked fine today as well, with regards to bracing and rolling whatever gets a paddler up consistently is the best roll for that paddler. if I am in my little boat sweep rolls or back deck rolls always work, my big boat I am back to the C-C or sweep to get around the volume. However if I flip in or above something consequential I make it a point to take my time, set up, and get up on one good roll, for me this is the C-C roll as I come up in a aggressive position ready for the next hit. Bracing v/s Rolling--after major shoulder surgery I am scared of bracing (other than a very low 'low" brace) and am a firm believer in a tight tuck and directional rolling, it gets you up quick. Tony commented on the newer shorter boat designs, they have to be driven versus ridden. snug outfitting and good posture make all the difference through rapids to the point of telling yourself set up straight until it becomes muscle memory. edge control and proper strokes trump power every time
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Julia Ruthford
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Post by Julia Ruthford on Apr 5, 2014 19:58:09 GMT -5
Well on the topic of bracing...I tried out two new braces on the Dries today that proved rather situationally useful I would like to offer up for further discussion. The first one is called the Cantilever Brace. To make the best use of this brace you need to find a hole that is caused by a shallowly slanting shelf such that it is not very deep but has a big pile. To initiate the cantilever brace...first begin by trying to surf said hole (peer pressure helps with this step ...then flip...then realize while upside down you are not washing out of the hole...roll up but end up with your paddle blade down stream of the hole as far as you can reach up and over the pillow with the paddle blade buried in the very edge of the clean water on the far side. Use the force from this to gradually pry yourself free while side surfing...ideally you want the down stream edge of your boat tilted such that you can pull your self up on the pillow rather than staying stuck in and under the breaking part. This is sort of an odd position given you are tilted upstream side surfing but reaching downstream to hold the vertical brace...it does help to be tall...flexible enough to lean a fair ways over the side of your boat and somewhat desperate (the fact that you know said hole is rather shallow and you really don't want to go back in again helps with this part). You can slide your hands towards the holeward blade to extend your reach (and lever arm) but make sure and keep equal pressure on both hands and them about shoulder width so as not to accidentally rip a shoulder out (also a good practice to keep someone that can reduce shoulders on standby in a near by eddy just in case (fortunately not a needed skill today)). Alternative names for this brace include the Claw Your Way out of the Hole Brace and the Hail Mary Brace. The second unique brace I tried today is known as the Mystery Brace. For this brace you need smaller hole with less flow going through it but that is still good and sticky. To set up for the Mystery Brace, initiate a window shade...slow the window shade after one revolution by either rolling with one hand or just letting the hole roll you up but letting go of the paddle with one hand. Make sure and leave the paddle downstream of you and underwater such that it is in the water flowing downstream out of and under the hole. Keep the paddle horizontal and well underwater such that the water is pushing on both blades and your hand is at the balance point in the middle. If you do this right you will have enough force on the paddle that you can't actually pull it back out of the water with just one hand and it will nicely balance your somewhat sunken boat still stuck in the hole. On top of begin a crowd pleaser it is one of the few braces you can do that using a pulling motion rather than the more traditional scull. Disclaimer: The above mentioned braces are fictional and any resemblance to actual braces was purely coincidental (though both did actually get me out of the described holes...though not sure how well they would work with boats that actually float however).
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